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I was looking through my old recs for someone looking for het curtainfic, and discovered, rather to my surprise, that it's a category of fic I basically never rec. I read it sometimes - I'm pretty sure I have links stashed in my giant me-locked posts full of links - but apparently I never tell you guys about it.

I think this ties into a realization I've been having repeatedly recently, which is that while I ship primarily het ships, I'm... not a het shipper? Which is to say, just because I ship a lot of het ships doesn't mean I have much interest in Het: The Shipping Phenomenon (except as a phenomenon, because fandom trends and tastes never cease to fascinate me).

Someone asked me to do a "Spotlight on Het" post for spnroundtable a few months back, and while I can go on and on about RPF het ships - because the two things that tend to come up a whole lot in fic of tiny RPF pairings is crack and excellent women - I really had nothing to say about SPN het pairings as a general thing. I can talk about ones I like - Meg/Castiel, Sam/Amelia, Sam/Jo - and point to fics I like for those pairings, but then I am less likely to want to talk about, say, Dean/Lisa, where Lisa tends to function solely as someone for Dean to care about (which, to be fair, is her entire narrative function in canon, too), or about Dean/Jo, which, bewilderingly, seems to be composed almost entirely of curtainfic in which they both retire and have babies.

Moving beyond specific ships, though, hetfic in SPN has a hard time because the vast majority of the time, if you're giving the female character equal weight in the fic (which is really the only kind of het I want), then you're basically inventing the wheel. She's at an immediate disadvantage, because I have eight years of canon characterization for Dean or Sam, and I've seen the female character in maybe 3-5 episodes, depending on who I choose. In order to give her the same depth of characterization and motivations, you have to do that heavy lifting yourself. And after awhile, that becomes tiring.

For example, I feel like I've thought through and written about Jo enough that I can write her pretty handily with whoever I like, without starting from scratch. It helps that she got a fair bit of screentime over several seasons. When I moved onto to writing about Tamara/Sam, I had to work hard for that two-thousand word fic I ended up with. And if I moved on again to, say, Gwen Campbell, as I keep having ambitions of doing (basically I just want Gwen/RoboSam bondage of the "not sure if want" variety), I'd have to do all that work again. And it gets tiring, spending all that time to make sure that the woman isn't narratively overpowered by Winchesters.

"But that's because you keep writing minor characters," you say. Reader, when it comes to women on this show, they are all minor characters. Some are easier to work with then others - Meg and Jo have more screentime than most, and are also embroiled in the supernatural in their own right which keeps them from getting sidelined into domestic-only storylines. (Or so you'd expect, anyway.) Meg in particular also has the advantage of experiencing a fair bit of character growth and change in her years on the show and being at least tangentially involved with at least half the major plot arcs. When it comes to parity of development, Meg/Castiel has by far the most of any canonical ship, IMO, which is probably one of the reasons I like them. (Like Spike/Buffy, I'd point out - another "foe yay!" ship that was the richer for the secondary character being originally introduced for purposes other than that of love interest.) In general, though, to have that kind of parity with any het ship from this show, canonical or not, the writer has to work at it, and I don't blame people for not wanting to try.

Of course, many people don't seem to require that kind of parity. There's an awful lot of hetfic out there that might as well be Winchester/Random Girl, because canonical character or not, her entire purpose is to comfort him and dab his teary eyes. There's nothing wrong with fic that's about Dean, who happens to be in a relationship with a woman; there are plenty of good stories to tell there. They're just not to my taste anymore. I'm hungry for shippy fic where the two characters function as equals, in their relationship and in the narrative; where the woman has her own motivations and agenda and feelings; where she is not just an accessory to the guy's story.

Entirely aside from the difficulties of working with a canon as gender-skewed as this one, there is the fact that het fandom seems to work from completely different impulses than mine a lot of the time. For example, it turns out I actively dislike most domestic fic, not because I don't want my characters to have dishes and curtains and a safe haven from the world, but because domestic fic tends to bring with it weird ideals of "normal life," of marriage and children and suburbia, that, while fine and worthy things to aspire to for oneself, are an extremely poor fit for many of the het ships I care about, especially as Ideals. Jo Harvelle has zero interest in living a conventional civilian lifestyle, and while it's conceivable that she might end up there someday (assuming she doesn't get ripped apart by hellhounds in her mid-twenties), you'd have to do a heck of a lot of work to sell me on it. Meg/Castiel as the happy settling-down couple is hilarious (even though them finding their own peculiar form of easy stability is extremely appealing to me).

All of which is to say, I love female characters, and I love them interacting with male characters, and yet "I love het" isn't something I can say without a whole lot of reservations.

Crossposted from Dreamwidth. Comment here or there. (comment count unavailable DW replies)

Comments

( 20 comments — Leave a comment )
cherie_morte
Jun. 25th, 2013 02:27 pm (UTC)
I think it's really problematic to equate shipping het in fandom with promoting heteronormativity? Not all het fic is curtain fic--that's certainly not why I read it--and not all slash fic is *not* curtainfic. A lot of slash fic is homonormative and has boy meets boy, boys get married, boys adopt and raise babies whereas I think het fic often swerves away from that because that's the het story we see played out so often that it's not how we want to do it when we get to our sandbox. So, I understand not wanting curtain fic for het ships, but to say that not wanting curtain fic for het ships means you are not a het shipper is to collapse the entire possibility that het ships can lead to anything else. Which is not a thing I think you do in your fic or what you are trying to do here, so I'm not trying to accuse you of it, just trying to push you to rethink your approach to the question of being a het shipper. I think by writing this post you've shown that you do have some really interesting things to say about het as a thing separate from just the het pairings you enjoy.
snickfic
Jun. 25th, 2013 03:20 pm (UTC)
What I was aiming to say there was not, obviously, that het can only lead to curtainfic, but that het fandom, the fans who seem to tend to collect around het ships, seems to focus on curtain fic and domesticity all of out proportion to canon and to the detriment of characterization. I saw this a lot with Spike/Buffy back when I was reading that, and I see it happening right now in the #megstiel tag on Tumblr. 95% of the things under that tag are curtain fic or ask porn. I keep thinking, "Oh yay, a ship I actually ship has a Tumblr following!" and then I go to the tag and am sad and go away again.

LJ does not, as far as I can tell, *have* any kind of het fandom for SPN; I just see a few isolated individuals. Most of the het I see on LJ were written by people who primarily write slash. The #megstiel tag seems to be representative of the SPN het ships on Tumblr (except that for most of the others, the ratio of curtainfic to porn seems to be higher). ff.net would be the other obvious place to look, since it tends to be much more het-focused than any other major English-language fic community, but I haven't spent much time there (although by far my most popular fic of the handful I've posted there is the one where Jo has a baby, for what that piece of anecdata is worth).

And meanwhile, what SPN het doesn't seem to have, anywhere, is the kind of shenanigans its slash fandom takes almost as default: coffee shop AUs, werecreatures, law enforcement AUs, crack where, well, Castiel is a tentacle monster who lands in Meg's back yard. The range of het that exists, at least from where I'm standing, is just a whole lot narrower.
cherie_morte
Jun. 25th, 2013 04:10 pm (UTC)
I guess my feeling on that is that rather than letting the trend in that section of fandom kick you out to the point where you don't want to associate yourself with it, why not take that as a sign that what it means to be a het shipper just needs to be reclaimed and recoded to include rather than exclude the parts that you are interested? I mean, if you feel that way, probably other people do as well and if none of you say anything or decide to be a vocal part of that section of fandom then the trend isn't really very likely to change?
snickfic
Jun. 25th, 2013 09:21 pm (UTC)
Well, there are really two fannish communities here, very broadly defined: there's het fandom (which is largely domestic and doesn't have enough crack) and there's slash fandom (which has plenty of crack, but not very many women). So my options are to hang out in the #megstiel tag hoping people will write more crack and non-domestic things, or to hang out in LJ/slash fandom, hoping people will write more women. I've chosen the latter, partly because I already know and love the LJ format, and partly because I'd rather be with people writing the kinds of stories I like than with people writing stories I'm not interested in about characters I like. Personal preference, there, really.
ghostyouknow27
Jun. 25th, 2013 07:59 pm (UTC)
As I was telling you last night, I don't think I'd define myself as a "het shipper" or a "slash shipper," so much as I'd say, "I write x" or "I ship x." It seems like too much attachment to the broad category for me. :)

Most of my het fic is RPF fic, which is a different ballgame (grabbing stock characterizations from a grab bag and doing the bulk of the character work and worldbuilding on top of them), but writing FPF het presents its own issues. Most of the time, I'll have the female character be the POV character, because that takes care of the "sidelining" bit, but you're still talking about characters who Aren't as Important to the Universe as the Winchesters, Who are Male, because the Winchesters, Who are Male, are of Utmost Importance to the Fate of the Universe. They can resent that, maybe (I've gone that route), but if you're in a canon-based universe it's something that's there and that the author needs to deal with. Sometimes it can be a lot of fun! Sometimes it's nice to remember when writing a canon-based fic automatically meant having 3-4 women without having to work for it.

I have a lot of trouble with ~~het fandom~~ and its favored tropes, not because it can't be anything else (I'd like to think my own stuff avoids "nothing but the curtains"), but I think part of the issue is that I'm less tolerant when certain Ideals are presented to me with women as opposed to men, because it seems to be saying more about me and what I should want or aspire to or daydream about, etc. I'll read silly romcom scenarios with two dudes or even two ladies; I don't have much patience for them in het. And while I am all-around grumpy on softening canon characters until they are as a gentle and bland as a weeping anthropomorphic Kleenex tissue, it gets my gander up EVEN MORE when people go around de-fanging women. They do it to dudes, too, and I hatesssss it, but it means something different, IMO, when it happens to women. Because women aren't supposed to have fangs in the first place.

Which isn't to say that the Meg/Castiel shippers who envision Meg and Cas planning birthday parties for their twelve magic babies are ~wrong~. There's id, and there's kink, and there's writing things because they make you and your friends happy. That's all fine and dandy! That's one of the best things about fandom! I'm just D: at their interests (as I've seen them expressed), and I'm sure many of them would be D: if I flooded the tag with gore and tragedy and angsty!werecreatures with possessed hair. I mean, the Meg/Castiel "Pod People" would likely do okay, even if it's 110% more cracky than anything I've seen in the tags on tumblr, but I'm not capable of writing the Meg/Castiel "Pod People." There would have to be tentacles. And more snarking. And possibly stinging fronds.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, except that IA it's frustrating when a (relatively) large group of people share your ship, but not the method or take on the characters or tropey interests. The only thing to do, I think, is find a couple like-minded people and enjoy them and ignore the rest. :D It's also interesting to me that tumblr has some pretty OOC takes on the characters within slash ships, but it manifests in such different ways. Destiel's crying bb Castiel is, uh, let's say not within my interests, but he gets antlers and hands made out of cupcakes and he settles down and starts a family, while Meg just settles down and starts a family, without dessert!hands ever being a possibility. I'm not entirely sure why that happens.
snickfic
Jun. 25th, 2013 09:50 pm (UTC)
It seems like too much attachment to the broad category for me. :)

You have a good point there. I'm speaking in very broad generalizations here, supported solely by my own experience and the experience of a handful of people I've talked to about it. Different fandoms do different things, regardless of which ships are big.

I think partly the reason I'm having this realization now is that I've somewhat defined myself as a het shipper for a long time - subconsciously, maybe, in Buffy fandom (where I wrote more genfic than anything else, but all the main ships I did ship were het), and more explicitly now in SPN fandom, where stories with women are rare. So to realize that on average, het fandom does not actually cater to my interests is sort of weird. :)

Most of the time, I'll have the female character be the POV character, because that takes care of the "sidelining" bit,

Even that doesn't necessarily solve the problem, if all she's doing is thinking about Dean and his plot and his problems. Not that I'm saying that your fic does that! But yeah, even a POV change does not by itself fix things.

you're still talking about characters who Aren't as Important to the Universe as the Winchesters

Yup. It's interesting to think about how shipping would be different if we hadn't introduced the whole apocalypse/bloodline/etc plot, if Sam and Dean were just two more hunters who happened to have experienced a lot of personal tragedy and some supernatural bad luck. The flavor of the show now would have been very, very different.

Sometimes it's nice to remember when writing a canon-based fic automatically meant having 3-4 women without having to work for it.

Heh, yes. Not that there wasn't plenty of ladybashing in Buffy fic (especially on the slash side, I gather from the approximately 6 Spike/Xander fics I read), but you did at least have to bash them - you couldn't just pretend they didn't exist. (Is that an improvement?)

They do it to dudes, too, and I hatesssss it, but it means something different, IMO, when it happens to women. Because women aren't supposed to have fangs in the first place.

Yep. Exactly.

I'm not capable of writing the Meg/Castiel "Pod People." There would have to be tentacles. And more snarking. And possibly stinging fronds.

GIMME. :D

Destiel's crying bb Castiel is, uh, let's say not within my interests, but he gets antlers and hands made out of cupcakes and he settles down and starts a family, while Meg just settles down and starts a family, without dessert!hands ever being a possibility.

And this is exactly what I was attempting to say about, but with better examples. Yes. It's not like SPN slash doesn't have plenty of schmoopy curtainfic - Sam/Gabriel is rife with schmoop, which continues to boggle me - but het doesn't seem to get much else, at least not in SPN. Presumably if there were more het, then we'd see more variation, but apparently the single most important kind of het, the default, is curtainfic. (Whereas when primarily slash people write het, it seems to be all about the hook-ups.)

The only thing to do, I think, is find a couple like-minded people and enjoy them and ignore the rest. :D

I have to say, that has been working stupendously well for me so far. :D *huggles flist*
ghostyouknow27
Jun. 26th, 2013 02:28 am (UTC)
Even that doesn't necessarily solve the problem, if all she's doing is thinking about Dean and his plot and his problems. Not that I'm saying that your fic does that! But yeah, even a POV change does not by itself fix things.

Well, I was also speaking broadly, since the assigned POV usually gives a certain weight and importance to that POV, even when it's unreliable. I can do a downward spiral of self-doubt on a moment's notice, here, because I don't think I win at all women all the time, and then there are all the times I doubt what I do with the menfolk, too, and that's in RPF as well, where I can't blame a canon. :) But, yes, there are challenges with women and SPN that, while not specific to SPN and SPN only, I don't think, do require some thought in the handling.

Heh, yes. Not that there wasn't plenty of ladybashing in Buffy fic (especially on the slash side, I gather from the approximately 6 Spike/Xander fics I read), but you did at least have to bash them - you couldn't just pretend they didn't exist. (Is that an improvement?)

Actually, I think I encountered more women-bashing in het in BtVS, but I also read about eighty times more het. People aren't much kinder to perceived threats to het ships than they are to perceived threats to slash ships. There were also the Spuffy shippers who hated Buffy. But there were also tons more women overall, canonically and fanonically, and of course not every fic bashed its women.

GIMME. :D

I CANNOT WRITE YOU ALL THE THINGS. I CAN ONLY HANDLE LIKE A HUNDREDTH OF THE THINGS. NOT EVEN THAT.

Presumably if there were more het, then we'd see more variation, but apparently the single most important kind of het, the default, is curtainfic. (Whereas when primarily slash people write het, it seems to be all about the hook-ups.)

I think there'd be more variety, but I do wonder if it would have as much crack. I didn't see much crack in BtVS slash or het, at least not of my preferred "everyone's IC but also were-possums" sort. The one cracky trend I recall hearing about was fairy!Spike, and I know there was slash but don't know if it came from or crossed into het. And I hear tell that S/D isn't all that cracky, but then there's a lot of crossover between S/D and J2 authors. Basically, I need SPN fandom to spontaneously develop a juggernaut het ship so I can observe what happens when it does, lol.
snickfic
Jun. 28th, 2013 03:27 am (UTC)
People aren't much kinder to perceived threats to het ships than they are to perceived threats to slash ships.

True. I guess to some extent the effect is just a lot harsher in slash? Since you're not guaranteed any significant, positively-portrayed women to balance out the bashing.

I CANNOT WRITE YOU ALL THE THINGS. I CAN ONLY HANDLE LIKE A HUNDREDTH OF THE THINGS. NOT EVEN THAT.

:DDDDDDDDDDDD

I didn't see much crack in BtVS slash or het, at least not of my preferred "everyone's IC but also were-possums" sort.

You mean, you think that slash people would also write less crack? IDK about that - I wonder if maybe partly what you're seeing in BtVS vs, say, SPN is more of a generational divide than anything to do with the slash/het ratio.

I wondered about crack AUs for BtVS, but since I didn't really read AUs there, I couldn't speculate. Even in all the awful Spuffy AUs you read, then, there wasn't a lot of crack? We definitely had plenty of idfic in Spuffy fandom - babies and slavefic h/c and (what I now know as) apology fic and sex pollen. But I think most of that followed along, um, fairly classic fandom lines?

Basically, I need SPN fandom to spontaneously develop a juggernaut het ship so I can observe what happens when it does, lol.

FOR SCIENCE. Obviously. :D
ghostyouknow27
Jun. 28th, 2013 05:52 am (UTC)
True. I guess to some extent the effect is just a lot harsher in slash? Since you're not guaranteed any significant, positively-portrayed women to balance out the bashing.

I think the effect is harsher in a juggernaut slash fandom, not necessarily in an individual slash fic vs. an individual het fic, at least for me. My rage levels can rise pretty high with het. I maintain that that one Mishalecki fic has the worst ladybashing I've seen and I felt awful after reading it, and yet I recall being furious over Spuffy fic where Buffy was a wench for not realizing how awesome Spike was, and Willow was also a wench for not seeing the awesomeness, Anya was a super wench for sleeping with him, etc. Or there was the fic where Buffy was The Good Woman because she was a virgin, and being a virgin is the most important quality in a woman, especially if said virgin is highly judgmental of other women. If that's your positive portrayal, I'll pass, y'know?

Also, even if the only bashing happened to the romantic rival, it wouldn't necessarily cushion the effect for me, because said woman deserves to be symbolically punished because she's flirting with the wrong person in canon, or we're deciding who's a good or bad women via romantic inclinations or ewww it's a slut let's talk about the gross slut and her sluttiness. The fact that we can draw lines around what constitutes an acceptable woman does not make me any happier. In the meantime, I read plenty of, say, Spander, where Willow remained Xander's best friend.

Again, I read more het than slash, which is likely why I encountered more ladybashing in het. And as I've mentioned, I'm pretty sensitive to how women are treated in het romance. And, as is obvious from the tl;dr, the Buffy-stan that is me is still kinda bitter, considering your Buffybot/Dru fic is the only BtVS thing I've read in years.

You mean, you think that slash people would also write less crack? IDK about that - I wonder if maybe partly what you're seeing in BtVS vs, say, SPN is more of a generational divide than anything to do with the slash/het ratio.

No, I was still talking about het, not saying that the presence of a het ship would decrease the amount of crack in slash fandom. I'm not sure how much crack would happen in a juggernaut het ship, because I'm not sure how much crossover there would be between het and slash if a het ship achieved juggernaut status. You know, to what extent would an emerging het ship take on the flavor of established SPN slash fandom, and to what extent would it create itself and therefore have its own conventions? BtVS was not an especially cracky fandom. When I was leaving (the first time) all-human AUs were the new big thing in Spuffy, but I wasn't paying attention to trends or their development at the time. Both het and slash seemed "fairly classic," in their tropes: high school AU, rock star AU, sex pollen, slave fic, feral!Spike, etc. I don't know whether juggernaut!Megstiel would be S/D with triple the babies or J2 with only slightly more 'the babies are kittens' or whether it would go through a D/C esque canon-->fanon shift. I have no idea what het juggernaut ships look like when they emerge from tumblr.

I'd have to be in a lot more fandoms to determine if generational differences are at hand. I think some fandoms just develop differently than others. Like SG fandoms were known for off-the-wall crack. I'm not sure all slash fandoms go in that direction across the board.

FOR SCIENCE. Obviously. :D

The fun part is that I would end up pissed off by 98% of the fic, because WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO CHARACTERS I LIKE! D:< It would actually be more ~interesting to observe than guaranteed to make Ghost happy. :)

ever_neutral
Jun. 26th, 2013 02:38 am (UTC)
I think you've basically pinpointed why I can't really deal with Dean/women. Is it just me, or are the writers PARTICULARLY bad with his female love interests? Ruby and Meg had their own agendas and avoided just being tied to Sam/Castiel. But I'm struggling to think of a similar example for Dean. I liked Jo well enough - but the show didn't follow through much on her potential (and I rarely saw the spark between her and Dean). Cassie - has never been seen again. Dean/Lisa - no, obviously. Add the above to the fact that he generally doesn't treat women particularly well and het-shipping Dean = meh. For me, at least. You?
snickfic
Jun. 26th, 2013 02:54 am (UTC)
Frankly, I'm having trouble shipping Dean with anyone right now; I am so annoyed with his everything this last season that it's bleeding into earlier season. :P

If I'm going to go that route, though, it has to be someone who's at least as forceful a personality as he is - Ellen and Pamela come to mind (although Pamela does not strike me as someone interested in the long haul). I also have a twisted interested in Dean meeting up with Sara Canning Lydia the Amazon again and working some issues out - I would like that a lot. /the only Dean/Lydia shipper in all of fandom

And I agree that he has never had a canonical love interest nearly so well developed as Meg or Ruby (although I think the execution of Ruby's character development leaves something to be desired, given that she's basically a cipher until her very last scene). Even Amelia, who didn't get any plot separate from Sam, still came across as very much a person in her own right, with her own flaws and motivations.

/uses Dean Icon of Angst, because why not
downjune
Jun. 27th, 2013 02:12 pm (UTC)
Frankly, I'm having trouble shipping Dean with anyone right now; I am so annoyed with his everything this last season

Right? I keep trying to fix him in fic and he's just so stubbornly an asshole, I feel like he needs to go stand in the corner and think about what he's done for a while.

Not that I'm not fascinated by his development. Like, I think it's interesting how he went from totally beaten down depressed alcoholic in S7 to sharp/bitter/cruel in 8, but I don't think Show is really dealing with how much of a jerk he's become. I don't know--I need to FIX this, but I'm not sure how. I don't want Charlie to be his counselor b/c that's not her job, but someone needs to give him a good shake.
snickfic
Jun. 28th, 2013 03:31 am (UTC)
I don't know--I need to FIX this, but I'm not sure how.

Man, and I have a tic about fic that "fixes" jerk characters and makes them see the error of their ways. I have no doubt you could do it so I'd like it, but so many people do it badly, which is why I haven't had even any ambitions to try for myself.

I would like to see you try, though. :)
kalliel
Jun. 26th, 2013 04:34 pm (UTC)
Oooh, interesting observations; I really enjoyed reading this. When it comes to writing, I'm the exact opposite; the less screen time a character has, the easier it is for me to write them, or to want to write them. Like, my approach to Dean from the very beginning has always been "oh no."

But I love Walt and Roy, for instance. LOVE LOVE LOVE. And those guys have like, six lines. They're gone before the title card even shows up. Writing people like Lisa, Linda Tran, Madison, or Gwen? Pick me! Sudden and overly elaborate, weirdly specific backstories for bit characters is probably my favorite thing to do, and the easiest thing to do, for me. So canonical developmental parity doesn't bother me too much; if anything, it makes my job easier. Not to say that all supporting cast members should be kept in small roles in canon, in order to support our fic-writing. But it definitely supports mine.

In my reading, though, I definitely see your points there. I adore Dean/Lisa as a pairing, because *I* want to marry Lisa, but I don't usually like reading it. A lot of Lisa interpretations tend not to be very, well, interpretation-y. Since I'm coming from a background in a hell of a lot of H/C fic, mostly the fics are about her caring for Dean and doing nothing but caring for Dean (as opposed to her being nothing but someone for Dean to care about), but I imagine the effect is basically the same, as far as Lisa's person goes. I really haven't read enough non-gen fic to comment on the rest, but I can see the issue.
snickfic
Jun. 28th, 2013 03:37 am (UTC)
But it definitely supports mine.

Heee! Clearly I need to do some more reading of your back catalog, because the fics of yours that come immediately to mind are of the Sam-Dean-Castiel variety, except for that one Dean/Lisa knotting one. And we know how I love minor characters. :D

A lot of Lisa interpretations tend not to be very, well, interpretation-y.

Heh, indeed. And I didn't phrase my original statement quite right - it's not precisely that she only exists for Dean to care about, but that she only exists in relation to Dean. Because you're right, even in canon she seems to have no compunctions about taking an emotional wreck of aman she hasn't seen in years into her home permanently, and that's... weird. Not quite Daphne levels of weird, but it is definitely not what you'd expect from the average woman, even if the guy did save her son's life once. But the depths of that compassion are never explored; it's like, of course she'll take care of Dean, because Dean needs taking care of. Obviously. :P
kalliel
Jul. 3rd, 2013 02:34 pm (UTC)
Most of my fics are indeed of the Sam and Dean variety, because they remain my favoriteeesssss, but when time comes to write Dean POV over age, like, 16, my response is bascially >:(((( MREEEHH. Alas, alas, some things need Dean. XD

And yes, I agree--I do love Lisa in canon, but I think it's mostly the same way I love people like Walt and Roy (well, not really--Walt and Roy are hilarious, and Lisa is wonderful). It's more love of potential, I guess? Which is a lot of my love in fandom in general, since the canon isn't so much a show you watch as it is a show you watch and then go play with. But you have to go play with it, capitalize on that potential, you know? But then you read all these fics where Lisa's role and depth are exactly what they were in her 10 minutes of screen time and it's kind of like... mreh. :\ OMG DAPHNE, ahaha, I forgot about her. Another one with excellent potential in fic, because her canon presence was SO WEIRD it was begging for fic-like explanations. XD
snickfic
Jul. 3rd, 2013 03:23 pm (UTC)
Oh! Oh! I have just the Daphne fic for you: I'm Not Some Plot Hole, You Son of a Bitch, by dandelioness. It is my headcanon now.

But then you read all these fics where Lisa's role and depth are exactly what they were in her 10 minutes of screen time and it's kind of like... mreh.

EXACTLY THIS. It's hard to fault the authors, because after all they're just following canon's lead, but those fics are so disappointing, and they comprise most of the purported Dean/Lisa out there. It's why I've given up being excited about seeing it listed as a pairing. :\



kalliel
Jul. 3rd, 2013 05:26 pm (UTC)
Lol, that title. XD Thanks for the rec! I have it open in a tab now~
downjune
Jun. 27th, 2013 02:04 pm (UTC)
Well, you know my feelings on this already. I want everyone to do everything together ALL THE TIME. Adventure and sex and marriage and conversation and kink and id. All of it everywhere.

It pleases me that I've found a group (small though it may be) who consistently give me what I want. :D

Philosophically, I feel like there's no defined right way to be a fan so I can't really be critical of what others want to write, but personally, I'm very judgey. Me personally, there are plenty of stupid wrong ways to be a fan and like 2 ways to be a good one. So, to keep from being cranky all the time, I stick to my group and ignore everything else. And rely on people whose judgment I trust to point me in the direction of things I'd otherwise have missed. *sloppy kisses*
snickfic
Jun. 30th, 2013 06:00 am (UTC)
I am loling at your entire last paragraph. Clearly you do a good job of sequestering yourself, because you've never come across to me in public as judgey or cranky. I am right there with you, really. Yes, they can fan however they find enjoyable, but whyyyyy does that mean they fan like that?! :D

And I am always pleased to point people to good things, so no worries there. <3
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