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* Man, I wish MU had a history function that kept track of all the comics I've read. It'd be so easy to implement and so handy for me. I also wish the links in Marvel.com's news banner weren't frequently broken. I wish their online interface for their subscriptions was up again - right now to make any subscriptions or even subscribe, you have to call them on the phone.

* I said something about Bucky in comments to somone that feels important enough to say again in a new post. When I say I want the aftermath of Bucky being the Winter Soldier, I don't want him angsting over the people he's killed. Or, that could be an element, but what I really what is an exploration of him working through what was done to him. I think maybe angsting about the death he is(n't) responsible for is a deflection of how he himself was victimized (which reminds me a heck of a lot of meta I've seen re: Dean Winchester, Hell's Torturer), but with Bucky, as with Dean, the narrative never goes that last step and makes it explicit.

I wonder if this deflection isn't something to do with masculinity and power over self and stuff, not so much on the parts of the characters (although I'd be fine buying that for both Bucky and Dean) but the writers. I have the impression that angsting over pain caused to others - even when you personally had no control over it is seen as noble and also a form of taking control, whereas angsting over pain caused to you is seen as... selfish? Self-centered? Weak, certainly. (Perhaps this is why so many people are Wrong about Sam this season.)

I am reminded of someone ([personal profile] deird1?) commenting that John Crichton in Farscape is like the antithesis of manpain - he spends a lot of time in pain, but it's pain over things done to him. I have never managed to finish Farscape, but that appeals to me in terms of narrative variety if nothing else.

Anyway. I don't want Noble Manpain; I want trauma recovery. Or trauma not-recovery. Or maybe I just want hot men suffering.

* Finally, , help, people who have read more Cap/Winter Soldier books than me. I've heard that a lot of people are anti-Bucky/Natasha because she has sex with him before he gets his memory back, and it's therefore dubcon? I have no dog in that fight one way or the other, I just want to know when that incident happens that people are talking about - what book, and where in the timeline?

Crossposted from Dreamwidth. Comment here or there. (comment count unavailable DW replies)


( 13 comments — Leave a comment )
Feb. 13th, 2014 03:44 am (UTC)
That would be a nice feature! I just keep a notepad file and track what I've read manually.

I have the impression that angsting over pain caused to others - even when you personally had no control over it is seen as noble and also a form of taking control, whereas angsting over pain caused to you is seen as... selfish?
Hmm, that's really interesting, especially since a lot of the time the way manpain-y things get written, they're actually making something that happened to someone else about them and how they feel about it, which can definitely cross over into being really selfish about it.
Feb. 13th, 2014 03:47 am (UTC)
INDEED. Co-opting other people's pain and making it all about you is a heck of a lot more self-centered, it seems to me, than being in pain yourself. I mean, one of those has choice involved, and the other doesn't.
Feb. 13th, 2014 03:56 am (UTC)
About the Bucky/Natasha thing, yes, they had sex while he was brainwashed by the Russians so it falls under dubcon territory... but by the same reasoning, Natasha was brainwashed/had her memories tampered with too, so. There are dubcon and other icky implications that I'm sure the writer didn't think about (Bucky being Nat's trainer is one), but it's all very murky and a lot of the grumbling comes from a section of Steve/Bucky shippers who love to bash Natasha.

Basically all the memory wipes/brainwashing stuff becomes very squicky when you think about it.
Feb. 13th, 2014 04:01 am (UTC)
...Huh. Yeah, if the sex is happening while they're both brainwashed, I don't see how that could possibly reflect badly on Natasha. It could just as well reflect badly on Bucky. Or, you know, no one. Yeesh.

Anyway, does that come up in Captain America, or Brubaker's Winter Soldier, or...?
Feb. 13th, 2014 04:07 am (UTC)
It happens in a flashback in a Captain America issue, I believe.

Like I said earlier, Brubaker is very fond of brainwashing but doesn't really seem to consider the implications of said brainwashing, like trauma recovery, consent etc. And honestly, if you want to go down the dubcon route, Bucky was technically Natasha's superior at the time. It's more a case of Steve/Bucky shippers using the implications as fodder to bash Natasha.
Feb. 13th, 2014 04:08 am (UTC)
Well, yuck. :P But thank you! And yeah, I'm only halfway through the run and already there's been an awful lot of brainwashing and memory wiping. I guess the recovery part is what fic is for. :P
Feb. 13th, 2014 09:19 am (UTC)
It's not quite a history, but there is this: https://marvel.com/my_account/my_must_reads?sort=TITLE-ASC&limit=10&offset=0 which you can add to by clicking "add to library" on title pages, and theoretically also contains anything you've downloaded for offline reading on the app (but this works...inconsistently)

Oh man, their website is a DISASTER. I really miss the old one. It wasn't all pretty and animated, but it got the job done.
Feb. 13th, 2014 02:45 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I already use the library function, which is okay but not super user-friendly. But in general, yes: A MESS. How can it be so broken? But it is so broken. Sometimes I try to load a page, and the basic CSS is just gone. Or I'll click on a link, and the link will be like '/comics' but missing the domain. How does that even happen. SO BROKEN.
Feb. 13th, 2014 03:08 pm (UTC)
I've found that mostly seems to happen on mondays, when they release new stuff into unlimited. I wonder if that has something to do with it.

IDEK. There was the old site, then there was the new site, which had some bugs but wasn't seriously broken, but recently, it's like barely functional. And yet so addictive.

At least the phone app is slowly becoming mildly less broken.
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Feb. 13th, 2014 07:01 pm (UTC)
swinging back over to dc comics -- almost all of the robins have been either almost sexually assaulted or actually raped and the only one of them who was actually allowed to have a story where they talked about what the trauma of that did to them was stephanie, the only girl robin in main continuity

First, wow, that's a lot of rape. And I don't see a lot of guys getting raped in media, either. Second, :P to the girl being the only one who was allowed to be traumatized by it.

Yes, exactly, what you say about compromising the male power fantasy. I think that's the problem that I'm having with Brubaker generally, that he is soooo stuck on the male power fantasy and permutations of it, but the power fantasy restricts the kinds of stories you can tell and the ways that you can explore your characters, which leaves their development feeling really unbalanced. Whereas I need that fallout and that exploration of powerlessness (which so often gets read as weakness).

I can't take a lot of credit for this line of thought, though, since it's lifted wholesale from some Dean meta I read back in the day. I just reapplied it. :D

(Deleted comment)
Feb. 14th, 2014 01:36 am (UTC)
Oh, I might look up Waid's run then! I was sort of assuming this was representative of comics Cap, and being disappointed. And I could not for the life of me see how anyone could have any feelings about Sharon, good or bad. So I will put it on the list. :)
(Deleted comment)
Feb. 14th, 2014 01:41 am (UTC)
Oh yay! I already had that one bookmarked because of the DeConnick connection.
(Deleted comment)
Feb. 14th, 2014 02:02 am (UTC)
Hmm, yeah, that art's a little weird, but from your description I assumed it was going to be a T&A fest, so actually that's much better than I was expecting. :)

And see, since this is my first real encounter with 616!Steve barring some guest appearances, I just don't have a strong sense of who he is. What you say is heartening, though.
( 13 comments — Leave a comment )

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